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Post by Omegaprime on Dec 26, 2012 9:57:09 GMT -8
As I've recently rediscovered that I'm indeed a very competitive 40K player I've noticed a growing argument online related to tournament competitive play vs what's commonly considered to be good sportsmanship linked to fluff and army builds.
Websites like RankingsHQ have started to redefine tournament players since they have created a structured format by which all players are nationally and internationally ranked. So do we all as members of the Punishers build the hardest, nastiest armies we can to defend our titles and ranks at Great Escape Games and online? Or do we honor what we already consider to be the highest qualities of what's made this game mean so much to us as players and hobbyists?
For the first time in the history the Contest of Champions it will have a season with a ZERO comp structure so now the question arises; how to proceed into the 2013 season? My first reaction has been to build the grossest army I can for this January, however knowing that Sportsmanship is going to be weighted much higher this season how do we maintain a balance between having strong army builds and protecting our soft scores? Collectively, what does everyone think regarding these schools of thought.
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Post by Big Tex on Dec 26, 2012 12:20:53 GMT -8
Build the nastiest list you can. Sportmanship is gonna be joke this year.
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Post by madfjohn on Dec 26, 2012 15:01:37 GMT -8
with how my army is i figer i will be tank on sport from sheer speed of play. even if i am not a slow player. Just build a list you wood have fun in the environment we are going to play in . Just remember fun games with friends do not need to be such hard list.
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Post by Big Duke 6 on Dec 26, 2012 16:09:50 GMT -8
Are Grey Knights Competitive or fluffy? Some would say competitive but they are that way due to their fluff. If it's in the codex use it. A general would never disregard the appropriate force to win the battle, why shouldn't we? Of course some armies (like my Raven Guard) don't have rules to truly support their fluff. While that does put a vanilla space marine at a disadvantage (for now), I still am the one deciding to play them or not.
Build what you want and if it feels unclean like a cheap whore with no soul.
Fuck it and take a shower afterwards!!!!!!!
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Post by madfjohn on Dec 26, 2012 17:24:30 GMT -8
lol you bring a new meaning to STD'S lol
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Post by fnpftw on Dec 26, 2012 18:18:43 GMT -8
I think im going to agree with Bigduke and Tex. I know i dont have the vast plethora of tourney experience as you guys, but im having a hard time truly understanding how army list is related to sports anyways. If they tourney guide lines are 0 comp, then why does your army list matter torwards sports. If you follow all the pre set rules to a tourney they only reason (in my opinion) that your sports should even be effected is how you act at the table.
If 0 comp is gonna b the rule set but its also gonna tank my sports because i followed these rules, then i truthfully think the CoC will become a dying breed of tourney.
To be told "Hey...these are the rules...Follow them" Then to be told..."Hey...you followed all the rules...you get a low sports..." Yea thats something i dont think i want to take part in
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Post by madfjohn on Dec 26, 2012 18:36:26 GMT -8
Now you see where I am at for a good player and me will get to round 4 but dpoart will hit me for slow play no mater how I play my orks
the roving Waaaaagh
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Post by Omegaprime on Dec 26, 2012 21:17:41 GMT -8
madfjohn - You control the construct of your own army build. If you bring so many figs to the table that it takes you 30 minutes to set up and then 30 minutes to play your first turn then you should get hit on sportsmanship. Sorry if you don't agree but If I had to wait an hour for anyone to finish deployment and their first turn I'd be pissed. Its like the IG player who wants to bring 250 models to a tournament then takes forever to do anything with that army. Nothing personal but if it takes you 30-45 to play a single game turn something is really wrong. @devon, a strong army build shouldn't get you tanked on sportsmanship. I'll provide you a list below of things I've been deducted points on sportsmanship for during tournaments and what I've docked others points for. 1.) In general, being a dick during the game (totally guilty on that one). 2.) Insulting your opponents army because it just isn't fun to play against (which I've done, more then once). 3.) Insulting your opponents because playing them is like prying out your own teeth with a fork (which I've also done) 4.) Watching your opponent sit on the other side of the table for 30 minutes thinking about what they want to do. More or less slow playing you. 5.) Refusing to show your opponent an army list (which has happened to me) 6.) Refusing to inform your opponent which units are inside which transports (also been done to me) 7.) Telling your opponent; "your're playing like a bitch" (which I've done) or general verbal abuse. 8.) Picking up rolled dice during play not allowing your opponent to see what you actually rolled. (been done to me) 9.) Having an opponent assume that your units have wargear or USR's which they don't then stating that its not your fault they didn't double check the army list since you handed them one before the game. So much for honesty (been done to me as well) 10.) Knowing for a fact an opponent has "counts as" or "custom" models which he's modeled for advantage yet they refuse to admit to it. 11.) Listening to an opponent yelling "1's" during an entire game turn whenever you're rolling saves, hits or wounds (which happened to me in the COC last year, I gave Ed Bla@#$% the look of death and told him to "knock that shit off"), I'd reached my breaking point. 12.) Having an opponent leaving the table at the start of each movement phase to walk outside for a smoke break fucking pisses me off. Yes I've deducted points from opponents for that shit. These are just some of the issues that have nothing to do with comp and everything to do with player conduct. I may not like an opponents army but so long as he's totally up front about his list and doesn't act like a dickhead most of the time everything will be cool. So here's a question for you Devon, if you're already in the shooting phase and taken shots with several units only to realize that you forgot to move a unit during your movement phase and your opponents refuses to allow you to go back and move said unit is he displaying poor sportsmanship? Would you allow your opponent to do so if the tables where turned? What if granting him permission to move said unit allowed him to contest or control an objective which would decide the game in his favor? None of these things have anything to do much with comp. For the past 13 years Gary was only ever trying to bring balance to a game which every T.O I've ever asked has agreed 40K was never designed or intended to be a game played in a tournament format. From purely the perspective of a tournament player, in a tournament I'd fight anything or anyone. At the table or in the parking lot if need be. In a casual game, I'm not going to waste my time playing against Imperial Guard, Dark Eldar, most Grey Knight builds, CSM's, Nob Biker lists nor most of the players who own those armies. Whats the point if I already know I don't enjoy playing against those armies in a casual game. Tournaments are a different animal entirely, you have to be ready to face anything but that's not to say you're going to enjoy it. So if you bring a list I think sucks ass to play against expect to be docked points, you may not agree but I honestly don't give a shit. I don't have any illusions that If I end up running my Necron Flyer list that Sirus and I have designed I'm not going to get perfect sportsmanship. Its going to be a bitch to fight, its not going to be fun so as a player I have to make a choice. Except the less then perfect sportsmanship score based off the list I bring, or play something that isn't going to be nearly as hard for my opponents to fight.
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Post by madfjohn on Dec 26, 2012 21:27:35 GMT -8
lol you know my armys the only way i get more than 150 modils is when we start having 2000+ points but i seem to keep geting slow playe and its not me but i am a great exscape gote for i play a hord army . i will see how it gose in the first coc thow
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Post by Omegaprime on Dec 26, 2012 21:36:18 GMT -8
John,
I'm sure you're going to get max sportsmanship even if you did bring 100+ figs to a 1250 game. You're a solid player, totally friendly and fun to play against. even when you lose.
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Post by madfjohn on Dec 26, 2012 23:15:48 GMT -8
thanks i just bug over how fast it is to play
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Post by fnpftw on Dec 27, 2012 1:46:42 GMT -8
If i jump ahead of myself and shoot shit and the opponent doesnt want to let me go back thats fine. Not his fault i jumped ahead. Especially if it was a crucial move. Me personally, i usually allow people to go back and redo stuff as long as its nothing too iffy. Just earlier today Cody forgot to doom my paladins and draigo squad. Didn matter to me i let him redo it. Cody is a cool person to play against so i have no problem with that.
pretty much, if there is a crucial move a player forgot to make, it is noone fault besides that players.
As far as tanking someone for their army. The simple fact that sports can be ruined for something like that makes me a bit iffy about the CoC. If i build my list to the guidelines and then play against 3 Marks...There is no way i will get a decent sports score. So sports being up to who i play when i know that im not a guy who would really get a low sports score from anything besides army list...yea thats very unattractive to me.
If im being a dick i fully expect to be given low sports. If im being cool fun and friendly, and my opponent gives me a low sports cause they dont like to fight D eldar...thats just f*****g stupid...you may not agree...but thats fine by me. I understand we both have very different looks on the game. I do think zero comp in the CoC is a stupid idea but i think it will be players who are SO against that will go as far to tank sports due to fighting draigo at 1750 that will really make it an unpleasant event.
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Post by fnpftw on Dec 27, 2012 2:05:40 GMT -8
And im not trying to be an ass or attack anyone, and I am gonna use your name Mark cause you made the statement im about to comment on. But if "So if you bring a list I think sucks ass to play against expect to be docked points, you may not agree but I honestly don't give a shit." is gonna be the attitude at the CoC. Then im much more worried about the player i get matched against then the army i do. And that says alot about a player...Ruining someone elses tourney experience because you as their opponent feel their codex is "Unbalanced" or "Overpowered". Im also a bit confused mark cause you say a strong army shouldn be tanked on sports. Then u make the above statement.
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Post by Omegaprime on Dec 27, 2012 8:26:13 GMT -8
Devon,
Both of the above statements are true, "You shouldn't be docked on sportsmanship for bringing a strong army". However, if my first match up happens to be against a Dark Eldar player fielding a Razorwing fighter, and 2 void raven bombers plus tons of vemons, and allies which includes a kitted out farseer I'm going to approach that game from a totally different point of view then I would otherwise. I can't help but become a little hard edged.
That army build tells me from the gate that no matter how nice of a guy my opponent projects himself as the truth is he wants to win no matter what. Once he gets his flyers onto the table my game is pretty much over combined with the powers of the Farseer. And odds are he knows it, that's why he built the list.
The same goes for Space Wolves, would you really want to play a game where your opponent brings Logan Grimnar and Ragnor Blackmane with Grey Hunter units all drop podding in your face turn 1? How about a CSM army with Abaddon at 1250 and a couple of Helldrakes? Are those armies constructed to be fun or just bone grinding? How about 9 nurgle oblits?
You and I used to play 40K at the shop but after several games against your BA lists which aways included layers of FNP due to the number of Sanguinary Priests you seemed to always field those games just stopped being fun for both of us. I'd pump tons of wounds intro your troops, watch you fail 80% of your normal 3 up armor saves only to then watch you make 90% of your FNP rolls. Granted these were all 5th edition games. Because lets be honest here, once 6th edition came out you dropped your BA in a heartbeat because GW finally realized just how OP FNP actually was.
And before you start venting about having your sportsmanship tanked by players at the COC and having your experience ruined by players like "me" man up and play in a few tournaments first.
For the record, I was only able to play in 5 of 6 COC tournaments last year, the lowest Sportsmanship score I awarded anyone was an 8, and that was to Michial Everly for being a bitch at the table and had nothing to do with his SOB army. During the last two tournaments I gave 5/6 players their own Sportsmanship sheets to fill out. They decided their own scores.
I've witnessed worse acts of Sportsmanship in the Twin Linked tournament then I've ever seen in the COC. I've been handed result sheets that are from club members blasting each other with 4's, 5's and 6's out of 15!!
Not to fire any AP 1 shots in your direction but Devon you really don't have any idea what you're talking about when it comes to tournaments, Sportsmanship nor army comp. You've never had the experience of playing in a highly competitive theater against players who never talk to you at the table other then to argue rules, double check every movement you make, every range when you're shooting, slow play you or try to fast play you into making mistakes.
I've won tournaments my friend and have nothing to prove. I've beaten both Ben and Matt in the COC, two guys who are far more competitive then I am. Those games where tough and full of heated emotions. No one tanked anyone else, although the argument could be made that Matt tanked himself since he filled out both Sportsmanship sheets and awarded me an 8 and himself a 7.
So, all that said, do you think I really want to field my army of Necron's with 3 Night Scythes and 2 Doom Scythes? Does facing down 5 flyers at 1250 seem like a fun game? If I faced that list I'd mark down my opponent. Hell, at 1500 I could add a 3rd Doom Scythe. Makes me want to call myself a duchebag. Give the COC a chance and stop stressing over shit.
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Post by fnpftw on Dec 27, 2012 9:40:57 GMT -8
I stress over and over i have 0 tourney experience. All im saying is im confused as hell cause you keep saying how army comp should not be the reason for low sports...but your gonna give low sports based on army comp.
I really dont want to "man up" if my sports will be tanked from a player who doesnt like dark eldar. There is no way...experienced or not...that i will ever believe thats ok. If someone figured out how to make a strong army that you cant beat, thats not cause enough to give low sports. plain and simple. I get your point completely. Like i said i wouldn want to fight draigo wing from 1250 all the way to 2500. But those are the guidelines to the tourney. If i manage to get the days off for work i will go to the tourney fully expecting to fight lists with tons of flyers, or super rough HQs. Lists built in hell soley to drag their opponent down. I will not give someone bad sports cause they figured out how to build a crushing army with their book and i didn. That is bad sports in and of it self if you ask me.
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